Speaker 1 (00:00:00): Good afternoon. Welcome to the webinar. We'll give a few minutes here for folks to join. I see the attending count clicking up. Um, while people are joining, I'm sure you're coming outta lunch or coming outta me of, of a meeting or something like that. While you're joining, I would love for you to open up the chat and let me know a couple things. Who are you, number one, two, what organization are you from? And third, where in the world are you zooming in from today? When you open up the chat, make sure you're sharing your chat with everyone cuz everyone would love to know just how far reaching this cause of growing generosity, uh, is reaching. It's always fun to see. There's always a couple people at it seem to be like up at 3:00 AM on the other side of the globe from us and that's, that's always really fun and en encouraging. (00:00:42): So, uh, we've got Susan Carolina, tiger Rescue, PIRO, North Carolina. We've got, ooh, it's moving fast. And my mouse will not keep up. Charles Wickham Pinnacle, living in Richmond, Virginia. We've got Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation, uh, in great white North Toronto, Canada. We've got Jeff with Impact Campus Ministries in Las Vegas, Nevada, thank you for being here. I appreciate you taking time outta your busy days and outta your busy schedules. You've got so many other things you could be doing right now, uh, rather than tuning in with us. And I appreciate that you're making time to learn about some new opportunities that might help you grow your digital fundraising and grow your impact. So keep blowing up the chat there. Really fun to see everyone who's, who's joining us today. Uh, as we get started here, before we dive into the content, I wanna make sure that you're aware of a couple things. (00:01:32): Number one, the Neo Summit, the Nonprofit Innovation and Optimization Summit 2023 is coming up on, on September 19th through 21st. So March of calendars for that. Uh, we would love for you to join us and come on down to Dallas, Texas for a few days where we're gonna talk all about how you can grow your digital fundraising. Uh, we often bring in speakers from outside of the nonprofit space who, uh, have some innovative ideas and thinking in the for-profit world that we think can actually make a big impact for us as fundraisers and nonprofit marketers. Uh, this quote from Marissa Steiner, core Reef Alliance. Neo is obviously a good time . It's hard to miss that when you see stuff like game shows and Wizard of Oz and all the, all the kind of the themeing that goes into it. Uh, it's not only been really valuable educationally, but it's also been a ton of fun. (00:02:18): So we lean heavily into the theme and the experience. Well, lots of games and fun networking activities and all that stuff on top of great educational content. There's a couple little photos, people having a blast at this past Neo Summit. Uh, and then this is a, a, a quote from Danielle Sparks who attended our, uh, actually Courtney and I taught a value proposition workshop before last year's Neo Summit. And he walked away from it saying, um, a lot of good things, but specifically this quote, there's so much information that was applicable. It won't just change the way that we approach our donors, but our philosophy of why we're even talking to them in the first place, that's so good. Isn't that huge ? Yeah. So that's what you can expect from this summit. Not just a ton of fun and it's gonna be a ton of fun, but also really deep learnings and insights that are gonna help challenge the way you think. (00:03:02): Because if we just live at the status quo, we're not gonna see results grow. We have to find new ways to challenge ourselves, push the envelope, innovate, uh, and test our way to better results. So we'd love for you to join us. Uh, go to io summit dot comm summit.com and you can get tickets right now. Okay. Housekeeping items before we dive in. Number one, the most popular question that we are ever asked about anything is are you recording this ? And the answer is always yes. Uh, so we will send you, uh, tomorrow morning. We will send out the recording of this webinar along with, uh, a link to the slide deck so you can review these slides. If you wanna just look at 'em yourself or share 'em with somebody else, um, feel free to do that. We'll also send you links to any of the resources that we mentioned today. (00:03:44): And we should have some time throughout. Four questions, definitely at the end. We've got some time card off for q and a, but if you have questions throughout, feel free to drop them in the q and a or just kind of give us your live commentary, uh, in the chat. We'd love to see your thoughts as we look at a few different experiments. Today's webinar is a little bit different than normal. Uh, so if you've been on a next after webinar in the past, oftentimes we're looking at concepts at a pretty high level using experiments, um, to, to show what we've learned works about things like email acquisition or donor acquisition or value proposition copy and all sorts of things, donation pages, donation page optimization. Uh, but today we're actually gonna dive into some very specific experiments, not with any sort of like larger category or topic or theme, but we just wanna show you some of the more interesting things that we've learned through testing over the past four or five months or so. (00:04:36): Um, at next after we really do one thing, which is a, we help nonprofits grow their digital fundraising, but we do that in three key ways, or a research lab where we go out and we conduct mystery donor studies to try to understand what's sort of the state of the nonprofit space. How are organizations trying to grow, giving, what are the different tactics that they're using on a donation page or in follow up communications to try to boost giving. But just looking at what other people are doing doesn't tell us what actually works. We have to put it to the test and see what actually works to grow giving. Um, we do a lot of that testing optimization work through our digital first agency. We're Courtney, who's with me today. And I'll give you a, a more formal introduction moment. Sure. Uh, runs a lot of that testing and experimentation with organizations that we work with every single day through our digital first agency and then third World Training Institute. (00:05:23): So we produce webinars like this as well as courses and all sorts of other things because our mission is not only to decode what works, but to equip you and as many nonprofits as we possibly can with what we're learning. So you can in turn, inspire greater generosity. Uh, as of yesterday, and I know this number has gone up even since yesterday, uh, uh, we have 4,841 online fundraising experiments in our library of tests, which is quite a lot. That's 4,841 learnings. Things that we have learned, either work or don't to inspire more people to sign up, click open, give, give more, give even more, become a major donor, all sorts of different things. Um, lots of learnings from those. And as I said, we, we often will wrap these up in these, these larger courses around different topics. Like we have a brand new one on Google Analytics, but also things like donor acquisition and value proposition, email, fundraising, all sorts of things. (00:06:17): Uh, we also have, we've been publishing these quarterly, starting to get on a rhythm of sharing just pure experiments with you on a quarterly basis. Uh, I'll share this link with you so you can go grab this book if you want to. But today we're going straight to the source, which is our good friend Winston. This tool is called Winston Knows, and this is the library of experiments, uh, that we are actively trying to mine and learn from and logging new tests that we run and new learnings that we, we uncover with nonprofits. And so we have five different people from our client services team, those who are working day in and day out with organizations on the ground running digital programs and trying to decode what works who are gonna join and talk about five pretty interesting and unique experiments. Um, so Courtney is our executive vice President, uh, over our client services team. Courtney, welcome. Thank Speaker 2 (00:07:03): You. Glad Speaker 1 (00:07:04): You, Speaker 2 (00:07:04): I'm glad to be here. Speaker 1 (00:07:05): . I'm glad you enjoyed us cause you know more about these than I do. So, um, the, we've got a lot of different types of experiments that we're gonna look at today. This one sort of starts at what we might call the top of the funnel or the bottom of the mountain, if you're familiar with the donor mountain analogy, which is just how do you get someone to be interested in you by starting with capturing an email. So do you wanna tell us about the experience program? Speaker 2 (00:07:27): Sure, yeah. Hand this off you. I'll take, I'll take, take this over. All right. Um, yeah. Thrilled to be here. And, uh, this is, this is probably the favorite, my favorite thing that we do is the testing optimization and then sharing. Because the goal here is not to just share all of these experiments so that you say, oh, cool, that's awesome. Good for them. But it's, it is to say, okay, how do I actually apply that to my program and can I apply? And what does that look like? And so, um, you know, what I'm sharing with you today is something that most organizations have and that is a newsletter. Most most organizations have a newsletter nearly Speaker 1 (00:08:00): Every Speaker 2 (00:08:00): Yeah. , right? Yeah. So, you know, uh, we're not asking you to create any additional content or any kind of, um, you know, more work I is, is needed here. That's not the case at all. In fact, this organization was a public radio station. They had a daily newsletter that they were sending. And the form for someone to sign up simply said this. It says, we brief you on what you need to know about LA today. This public radio station was no surprise, maybe located in Los Angeles. And the goal of the newsletter was to do just that. It was to try and communicate all of the things that a, uh, you know, someone in the LA area would be interested in doing, uh, or maybe information going on. And so when we look at this, we said, okay, well, at least they're, they're talking about, you know, there's relevancy in, in, in finding something out today. (00:08:49): It talks about everything that we need to know about la so I, I kind of know what I'm gonna be receiving. But we really wanted to kind of lean into a couple of factors. We wanted to increase the clarity, so what are they getting, maybe even frequency of this specific newsletter? And second is, we talk about this all the time, Nathan, is this, you know, people give to people. Mm-hmm. Um, is there a way that we could even humanize this signup form? Now you might be like, scratching your head, like, how do you humanize a signup form? I know, I, I get it. Like, it's, it seems a little bit odd, but take a look at the treatment that we developed. We simply did, did this. (00:09:30): Let's see. Come on there. . Sorry, obsessed with my animation. No worries, no worries. So this was our treatment that we developed. And the goal, again, remember, was, was clarity on what, what they're gonna be receiving and, and humanizing it. So, you know, making a greater potential connection with the end subscriber. So, uh, we included this image of, of Erica. Erica was actually the person who is sending their newsletters and Erica is sending them every single day. Uh, now obviously this is all automated, but the, the newsletters came from her, her name. And we thought, well, gosh, the, the, the newsletter's already coming from her. Could we actually show people who Erica is so that Erica isn't just this, you know, name in my inbox, but I can actually have a connection with her even just kind of knowing who she is and what she looks like and, and, um, you know, that she is that person sending me this valuable content that I have signed up and asked to receive. (00:10:28): So we included her image. We even said, Hey, I'm Erica. And then we simply said, each weekday morning, I'll help you start your day with what everything you need to know about what's happening in la. Again, you know, I think there's additional testing we can look at at, um, with this specific, this specific form. But we really did help kind of achieve this idea of clarity in what we're sending in the frequency. We said each weekday, not just weekday, but morning. So it's, it's daily, it's every morning. And even just this idea of the value of the newsletter. So it's not that we're gonna just send you a newsletter, no, I'm gonna help you start your day with what you need to know. Again, that value goes back to the person who is potentially subscribing and then of course of what's happening in la. So it tells me what I'm receiving, right? (00:11:20): So we've got, you know, the, the timing of it brings the value back to the subscriber and then the what, um, in addition to kind of humanizing this approach and the results were really, really interesting. You know, we, we had hoped that it would do well, and actually it did, it did very well. You can see them side by side here. We saw a 36% increase in the number of emails acquired by humanizing this pop-up. So this whole thing of like humanizing our communications and email, um, and the messages that we're saying and that people give to people, well, the reality is that, you know, this, this humanized approach works even all the way at the top of the funnel, right? And so as you think about this newsletter that you might have your, for your organization, what are ways that you could potentially, you know, humanize it or, um, maybe even just starting out by, uh, clearly communicating what are they receiving? (00:12:20): One of my favorite experiments that we did around a newsletter clarification was where we told them all of the things that they're gonna receive in the newsletter. It's not just like, Hey, sign up to receive the newsletter. We're like, no, you're gonna receive stories and events and exclusive, um, updates from us. Like, even if you just start there from a clarification side side of things that might help increase the likelihood of someone to say, you know, not only, yes, I'm interested in this, but absolutely I want this. Um, and then maybe kind of going into the humanized approach, but, um, very cool experiment. I just love that it kinda goes back to the foundational principle that we always say is people give to people and just human, all of our communications, um, resonates at all points of the funnel. Speaker 1 (00:13:03): Love it. I I think it's cool. I mean, there's two things in there I think that I think are really interesting. One, that it's not like a one-off tactic to just get more people to sign up. Yes. But it is the holistic experience. Speaker 2 (00:13:15): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (00:13:15): And we don't have experiments today to go kind of unpack, but people give to people humanized email philosophy, but those who have been on previous webinars, you certainly know it well, sending email from actual people because we are actual human beings. You're building that real relationship. Yeah. Um, to invest in donors and potential donors, um, as a human being and know it's a holistic, this is, it's just cool to see the same tactics we've seen work in the inbox, work totally on a, in a popup on a website Speaker 2 (00:13:41): . Yes, absolutely. Right, right. And you know, I think about like, when, when I see this, I'm sure there's questions or people saying, well, like, we don't even send from a person right now, it's just from the organization. If I could like help you, um, you know, put this into action from a, maybe even a design of experiments is one test sending from maybe you're sending from the organization. So, so first test from the organization versus a person, and then maybe look at, you know, going back and testing. If you find that the person, uh, does better from an open rate and uh, click rate and even like unsubscribes maybe are lower, um, then what can you do even at the, at the start of that, getting people into your funnel. So if you're sending from a person, then maybe try this approach of humanizing it. So you know, you find that Nathan's name works. Let's put a picture of Nathan on your pop-up and say, Hey, I'm Nathan, I'm gonna be sending you your newsletter. Um, and then my name is Speaker 1 (00:14:35): On too many things. This Speaker 2 (00:14:36): Yeah, you're right, you're right. You're, let's, let's, people love your photo. They love you. So, um, and then maybe adding the clarification on like what they're sending or what you're sending to, to, you know, increase the value to the, the end user. Speaker 1 (00:14:49): Awesome. Cool. One, one other thing you said I wanna highlight too is talking about exclusivity. Um, we often talk about that when we're, you know, talking about asking for a donation and making sure you have a unique value proposition. You don't sound like everybody else. You can give hope pretty much anywhere. But yeah, , how are you making an impact? But how much that applies to something that, as you said at the, at the front, everybody has a newsletter. Yes. So how do you make yours not sound like everybody, I can get a newsletter literally on any website across the entire internet . So absolutely. What's, what is the value right Speaker 2 (00:15:19): Here? I always ask the question, you know, when you go to someone's website, like, are you there to sign up for the like latest and greatest newsletter? No. Like, nobody is looking to sign up for a newsletter. Cuz really, like, at the end of the day, no one really wants more email, but if the email has value and it benefits them, um, then they would, so, so keep that in mind. So then, then that goes to like, well how do I communicate that? You know, instead of, you know, sign up for our newsletter. Cuz that's really what you see often. Oh yeah. is like, if even Speaker 1 (00:15:53): That Speaker 2 (00:15:53): Sometimes Speaker 1 (00:15:54): Newsletter email. Speaker 2 (00:15:55): Yes. Speaker 1 (00:15:56): Right. Submit Speaker 2 (00:15:57): . So, so like what is in your newsletter? Break it down. So are there stories of impact? Are there exclusive updates that people can receive? Can they stay up to date on whatever your cause is? Like, again, if these people already, you know, know who you are and are passionate about the cause you, you, um, that, that you do, then they're going to want to, to know about that. But, but we have to communicate that to them, you know, so I would just like spell it out for them. I even think about this example of, you know, everything you need to know about what's happening in LA in LA that's good, but it's not great. You know, I would, I would even say like, you know, find out the greatest places to eat the, you know, concerts and events happening within your own city and, um, you know, be the first to know to, you know, to hear all about this or what whatever it might be. Like, get specific so that the exclusivity factor goes up. And guess what, when you increase the exclusivity, the appeal of the offer goes up and conversion comes to follow. So, Speaker 1 (00:16:56): And put it to, to the test. Speaker 2 (00:16:57): Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 (00:16:58): It's the only way, you know, it works. Awesome. Courtney, this is fantastic. Thank you. Uh, I don't know if you saw Greg Wood is gonna use the picture of pitch and say, and then send emails that way. Yeah. Let us know how that test. Speaker 2 (00:17:08): I was gonna say, I can't guarantee like a hundred percent lift, but you know, I would, I would hypothe hypothesize that, well, Speaker 1 (00:17:14): Different celebrities and things like Speaker 2 (00:17:15): That and . Right. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks, Speaker 1 (00:17:19): Thanks Courtney. All right. Next up we're gonna bring on, uh, my good friend Artie Coolidge, uh, who's our director of optimization here at next after he's joining us virtually today. Artie, what's going on? How are you my friend? Speaker 3 (00:17:30): Hey, Nathan. Doing well. So excited to be here to just share some fun experiments. Speaker 1 (00:17:36): Yeah, I hope, hope you don't mind if I, I share ar Artie has been, you know, uh, both on the, the client side of working with next, after you've been, I would, I would say hopefully you're okay with this term, like top fanboy for a long time. I know watching, Speaker 3 (00:17:50): Oh, I'm, I'm very okay with that term. Yes. . Speaker 1 (00:17:53): I didn't, Speaker 3 (00:17:54): It's fun being on this side of the webinar, Speaker 1 (00:17:57): And that. Yeah. Now, so now you're joining us on one of these webinars. I I just love that, that's so much fun. Um, Artie's gonna share with us an experiment, um, that was run during, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe during the year end season. Is that, is that Speaker 3 (00:18:10): Correct? Yeah, so during those critical final days of the calendar year where I'm sure many of of you guys joining us today, that is your critical season of fundraising. I know from our research as much as 30 or 40% of your annual revenue might be coming in in those final weeks. And so for this organization, they really were trying to turn every needle they could to just jumpstart their giving in those final days. So this is one of my favorite experiments that you picked, Nathan. So, Speaker 1 (00:18:37): Well, I, yeah, I'm excited for you to unpack it a bit, just a little extra context as well. We, we released a mobile donation experience, uh, research study at the very beginning of this year. And so we were wrapping that up at the same time as this experiment was being run. So I don't know if it actually made the final report, but I wanted to make sure I got some visibility here because it's, it's really interesting how this kind of small tweak for a mobile user can make such a dramatic impact, especially during such a high urgency time. So I'll put the control up and you can give us the context. Why'd you run this? Speaker 3 (00:19:08): Excellent. Speaker 1 (00:19:09): It might work. And Speaker 3 (00:19:10): Yeah, so this, this particular organization, uh, like probably many of you on on the webinar today, really was trying to find a way to increase the conversion rate for their mobile traffic to the donation page. And one of my favorite things to address and the process of giving is the value proposition. Why are we saying someone should give? And oftentimes in order to properly convey that your copy ends up being longer on the page. And while this can look fine on desktop, once you go to mobile, it can be a little lengthy, right? And so for, for our partnership, we kept testing ways with this organization of trying to make the mobile giving process strong, while also retaining the strength of value proposition, that clarity, the appeal, the exclusivity of the offer. And so as we were getting ready for the final weeks of their year end campaign, we hypothesize that we could reduce that friction for mobile users by adding a simple button at the top of the page that would allow traffic that's already motivated to give, to bypass that copy by giving a little micro decision right at the top. (00:20:26): A little micro. Yes. So if you can go to the next slide, Nathan. Yes. This is what we wanted to add and that was a little start my gift button. So again, we're thinking, hey, people are getting emails they're hearing on the radio with this particular organization appeals to give, they're maybe traveling on the website because it's year end, they wanna make their gifts so they're already motivated. What if we take that motivated traffic and just give them an opportunity to make a simple, yes, I'm ready to start my G gift and in clicking that, bypass the rest of the page and jump straight down to the donation form. That's it. And so one of the things I loved about this hypothesis was if it proved valid, it's a simple tactical change that can be rolled out during campaigns where there's a high motivated user coming to the page. (00:21:16): So these are people who already probably know quite a bit about the organization. They already know why they want to give, how much they want to give, and we're trying to simplify that process for them while not also short-changing the process for others who have less motivation. I don't wanna have to pick and choose in that sense. So if you can go to the next slide. The, the most exciting part of this was when we ran this experiment side by side and ran it for the full final half of their December campaign. Looking at desktop traffic, it really didn't do much at all because again, on desktop, the user experience wasn't, there wasn't a lot of friction from that extra copy on the page. But on mobile traffic, we actually increased donor conversion on the page by 50%. This was huge because we had probably done by this point at least half a dozen experiments trying to increase donor conversion for mobile users. We tried copy, we tried different links of value proposition, we tried different images, all of these different tactics and none of them seemed to have an impact. But once we gave that mobile user that was motivated to give a simple way to raise their hand and say, yes, I wanna start my gift, that additional step in the process actually increased the donor conversion. So to say that, uh, this organization was excited is an understatement cuz it was the first time again on mobile, we'd seen such a decisive win in conversion. Speaker 1 (00:22:48): It's fantastic. And I'm sure a, a 50% bump in conversions during this high urgency, high traffic season is, yes, not bad. That's pretty good. Speaker 3 (00:22:56): Not bad. Speaker 1 (00:22:58): . And Speaker 3 (00:22:59): The part that, the thing that I think to, you know, to, for anyone listening to this and thinking, well what, how do I apply this at, you know, at my organization or my donation page? The first thing I would say is, do you know what the difference is in the breakdown between conversion rates between desktop and mobile traffic? A lot of times this is something that is overlooked as we're thinking about our pages, but if you go into Google Analytics or even depending on your donor platform, you should be able to see that breakdown and see how are these different traffic sources engaging with my page? And then that can inform how you want to take the next step in testing to optimize that. A lot of organizations they struggle because the mobile, the mobile giving process, like we said in in our analysis of that, it can be burdensome. It it, it can really suffer because of either outdated technology or just the way everything dynamically adjusts for the screen size on the page. But if we're armed with where we are starting from what's actually happening by channel on the page, we can then focus on improving in our testing that experience by channel. And that's what I love about this is one solution doesn't necessarily fit all through testing and optimization. You can actually find the solution that's tailor made to fit the best for your donors on the particular device they're gauging with you on. Speaker 1 (00:24:22): I love it. And that's, that's really kind of like the macro learning that we took away from that, that mobile donation research study as we was trying to mine our library to look at, you know, we don't always run really specific mobile experiments like this one, but there's lots of ones that we've run that, you know, you might see a 25% increase in giving or conversions and the lift was really driven by the mobile device and nothing really happened on, on desktop as you're saying. And so we've really started to see like there's, the way that someone approaches even something like reading copy on a mobile device is a totally different experience than on a desktop. Your desktop is this big and you're probably scanning and skimming and moving quickly. The mobile phone is this big right in front of your face and it's really hard to miss the words that are right there on the page. So sometimes copy and, and even these buttons like this that jump right out at you have even greater impact because they're just in that smaller viewpoint and more, more focused and in center. So I love these one of the, I think they're really insightful. Go ahead. Speaker 3 (00:25:20): No, I was just gonna say, one of the things too, I think it's a great reminder for everyone on too is just the need. When you're developing your copy, you're building your donation page to preview it, not just in the desktop window. If you're building your tests and optimize, are you taking the time to click the dropdown and preview on an iPad or on a tablet or on a mobile phone? Because that simple interaction can completely change how we view what we're building to. So it it's really about getting not just into the mind of the donor, but into the donor's shoes, walking a mile and interacting with your content the way they're going to and thinking about that funnel holistically so that you can then find opportunities like this. So I hope that's, I hope that helps someone and would love, absolutely love to hear of anyone else test this approach and what their results are. Speaker 1 (00:26:10): Yeah. Awesome. It all comes back to empathy, it sounds like. So I I I love that Artie, thank you. Before, before you go and we hand things off, Becca who's gonna join us next, um, Jason Nabb in the chat had a question asking about what platform we used to create this landing page specifically. I would even go further and say, what platform did you use to run, run this experiment? How are you making? Speaker 3 (00:26:30): So the experiment? Yeah, great question. So the experiment was built in Google Optimize, which we love to use because it's free. Of course, many of you watching today probably know that Google Optimize is being sunsetted in the coming months. So, uh, not sure what what tool I'm gonna use after that, but we're looking at several, uh, so stay tuned for that. However, um, in optimize, I know that you can add a button like this Jason to raise donors. I see you just asked about that. So even if it's not something that's supported by the donation platform, it's often something that's supported as an addition through optimize, in which case if it won, you could roll that out as an experience through optimize, even if the donation platform doesn't have that functionality built in. Speaker 1 (00:27:18): For those of you using Google Optimize currently, you can still use it until September 30th. And I'd encourage you to, and we're actively working them, yes. Seeking out some other partnerships with some of the other testing tools that are out there. I had someone even, uh, earlier this week kind of saying like, well if Optimize is gone, is testing gone? And the answer is absolutely no. It's just maybe the barrier oh, bit higher cuz there's some cost now to exactly platform. So we're working on trying to find some partnerships and solutions to help lower that cost to entry and then equip you all to go run even more experiments at the end of September. So you still got plenty of time to run, run test now. Artie, thank you. You're amazing. Appreciate you Joe. Thanks Nathan. Speaker 3 (00:27:57): We'll see you later. Speaker 1 (00:27:58): I'll see you. Uh, we've got Becca Joe coming on and Becca, Joe, is that okay if I call you back? Joe, Rebecca Josephy is our vice president of client services here. Next after, uh, how long have you been here? Four years? Speaker 4 (00:28:11): Three I've three Speaker 1 (00:28:12): And a half. Three and a half, okay. Three and a half years. Three and a half years of optimization. That's huge. Cool. Well, um, Becca, Joe runs, uh, several different client accounts running lots of experimentation testing with some large organizations, um, across all sorts of different channels, whether there's donation pages, emails, advertising, et cetera. This experiment, uh, that she's gonna walk us through touches on recurring giving, which, uh, is only becoming like cool in the US in the past couple of years, but has been like the primary way of fundraising in most international markets. So we're kind of catching up. Um, and I'm excited for you to unpack this experiment because it's just like a small way to sort of prompt more people towards recurring giving. Uh, so I'll let you take it from here. Speaker 4 (00:28:54): Awesome. So the control for this experiment, uh, is just like any other donation form you've probably seen. Uh, we ask for the donor to select their gift out of the gift array. We ask them to complete their information. We have a checkbox that says make a monthly gift. And so that original hypothesis for this experiment was adding value proposition to make people want to select the checkbox that said, make this a monthly gift, right on its own. It kind of doesn't have many legs to stand on. It's just kinda like, well, why should I make it this a monthly gift? Again, thinking about the conversation the donor is having in their mind as they experience this page, there's really not a good reason other than the form says, make this a monthly gift . So we developed a treatment to add a little bit of extra helper text for why someone should choose to make this a monthly gift. (00:29:50): So what that looked like on this donation form was just a little box underneath that make this monthly gift check box. And we said, Hey, this is why we're asking you to make a monthly gift is because your ongoing support will help us throughout the year to do something that you care about as the donor, right? So we introduced this as the treatment, just a simple line of value proposition to encourage more people to check that box. And again, the original hypothesis for the experiment was to generate more recurring donations. Um, but I wanna show you what we learned, uh, as a result that we weren't expecting. So again, you have a control on the left, just the normal everyday experience of the donation form. And then the added statement, it's a little subtle, you know, we put a shaded box around that statement just to call attention to it, make sure people see that as they're going through the process and considering the next steps. (00:30:47): And we saw a 28% increase in not recurring donations, but in overall donations. So what we learned, um, you know, in looking at the sample size of recurring gifts is that, um, it actually we had single digit gifts on recurring for both the control and the treatment. So again, hard to say yes, this impacted recurring gifts, which again, was our intention, that was what we wanted to see. But what we learned was even more helpful in hey, adding value proposition even throughout the process as someone's giving a donation, having one extra sentence helped people say yes because they saw the impact of their gift. Again, there's some, some different ways we're testing this now, calling out more, you know, reasons why someone should give monthly, because we do still want to find a way to crack the case of how we get someone to say yes to recurring. But this helped us learn that adding that value proposition helped more people say yes in general. So we were able to increase revenue 20%, uh, with 80% level of confidence just by making this simple change on the donation form. Speaker 1 (00:31:57): That's pretty incredible. I mean, you said a few things that I think are really, really interesting to, to say again and make sure don't get missed. One, I mean, talking about, you know, the volume of recurring giving that's coming in, unable to kind of get a, a statistical, like a 95% level of confidence that you see that result over time from recurring giving, but still understanding the impact that it's making, just so there's some little learnings about testing and optimization in there that are, are good nuggets. Yeah. But, but you talked about the conversation that's happening on the page, the throwback to kind of what Courtney was talking about earlier. Um, this holistic experience of communicating with a human on the newsletter signup form, hearing from a person in the email and those things leading to better results. But the same thing is happening even on our donation pages where it's not just a transaction, it's a, it's a logical, meaningful conversation that's happening. You wanna unpack that a more? Speaker 4 (00:32:48): Yeah, absolutely. So again, just as you're developing your donation page copy even, uh, beyond the copy itself, but the actual form itself and the functionality of each of these steps, um, you know, you can consider how this conversation plays out in the mind of your donor. So even looking at this page and going, where else can we optimize? You know, telling someone, make your gift now versus asking them, are you interested in making a gift today? If so, you can, you know, choose the amount you wanna give below. So guiding them through each step of that process, um, we've, we've found through, again testing, uh, sometimes people are going through this, they're treating this experience like the page is alive. You know, if someone called you on the phone, you wouldn't say make your gift. Now you would say, well, how much would you like to give today? Right? So having that context as you're creating the form, walking through it, making sure it makes sense, if someone's going through that process unguided, will they still feel like someone was helping them through each step along the way? And do they feel like they have enough information available to make the decision to say, yes, Speaker 1 (00:34:00): I love Ben's got a, a comment. Well, Whitney jumped in, thinks it's amazing that such a small tweak can make that kind of an impact, which we see that kind of thing oftentimes. Yeah. Like sometimes it's the small things that lead to major lifts. Ben's comment is really interesting here. Um, thinking about what to test next, because I i I never want us to assume, I think you'd agree with this that, that we're done just cuz we got a lift. Exactly. There's always room to keep, keep testing and optimizing. Ben, suggesting here, what if you even got more specific than ongoing support, but talking specifically about like a monthly recurring giving, what does that do? And cuz ongoing support could be, you'd give every couple of years Sure. That's ongoing. Sure. But it's not exactly what we're looking for in this case. What, what would you test next in this case? Or maybe what have you started to testing? Speaker 4 (00:34:44): Yeah, a couple things. Um, one great point, Ben, having clarity around, you know, your ongoing support could impact one time or recurring gifts that could, um, you know, if I make a gift today, you're telling me basically, okay, well your support's gonna help us throughout the year. We don't specifically call out your monthly gift would help us accomplish these goals. Um, we are doing some testing on different value proposition that closely aligns with the offer that the, uh, visitor arrives on this page from. So matching up the value proposition again, of what the donor wants to do with their gift, um, based on what we learned about them when they took a survey or signed up for an ebook. So making this statement different depending on what the user experience and what their interests and motivations were for engaging with our organization in the first place. Cool. So definitely, definitely more tests in the work. This is not the end all be, and again, that the green arrow here was surprising again, not what our overall goal was. We still want to figure out how we can get more people to say yes to recurring. Uh, but what we learned is adding value proposition along the way throughout the process again, helps more people say yes to giving one time. Speaker 1 (00:36:02): Awesome. Well keep us posted as you get those other tests run and we'll bring 'em back here and we'll share 'em on the, on the next webinar once they, uh, get launched. So thank you so much. Thanks. Inviting me. We've got Courtney Kingaid coming in next, uh, to talk about a pretty interesting experiment. Um, to give a little bit of background, uh, Courtney is a digital strategist here and next after again working day in, day out, figuring out how do we, uh, you know, optimize programs and get better results. Um, and yeah, test our way to, uh, green arrows and going up and to the right. Yeah. This, this experiment. I'll give like a bit of the background, I'll hand it to you. I thought was really a r a really good example of, I said it upfront. When we do these kind of like mystery donor research studies, we're always looking for what are the interesting things that people are doing and nonprofits are doing to try to grow giving. But just seeing something cool and interesting doesn't tell us what works. We can't just assume cuz someone else is doing it that we should do it too. And it's, it's probably working for them. It might not be working for them, they just don't even know. So, or maybe they're testing it, so we have to take these ideas and we have to put them to the test and Courtney did exactly that Yeah. With this, uh, this experiment. So can you break it down for us? Speaker 4 (00:37:05): Yeah. So this particular experiment, uh, really with this organization, we weren't trying to solve a problem. I think a lot of times when we come and we start testing, it's because we're trying to fix a problem or, or, um, an area that needs improvement. And that's not to say don't test when there's a problem. Speaker 1 (00:37:24): Absolutely by Speaker 4 (00:37:25): Far you should. Um, but, uh, this test reminded us of like how sometimes testing can actually expose the problems that we didn't realize actually happened. Yeah. So interesting. Um, for some context, our team has been really big fans of, uh, Wikipedia. They actually have a, they publish a, uh, a fundraising report every single year where they have all of these experiments. And because it's Wikipedia, they can run millions it seems at a time. . Um, Speaker 1 (00:37:53): It's like the nerdiest part of like the holiday season is like, Ooh, what's Wikipedia testing? I Speaker 4 (00:37:57): Think it comes out in like October. So this year in October, if you're looking check Wikipedia. Um, and that's incidentally what caused it us to like push over into testing this particular concept. So, um, for a control, um, we actually, with this organization we tested into, um, this particular sticky bar, which where you, where you see it says, um, will you be one of the 20 donors need, need it in the next hour? Um, and that 20 actually becomes 19 and then 18 based on, um, you know, fancy code stuff that I don't fully understand . But, uh, somehow it's able to do a, um, and we, we had tested into that and it was working and we were seeing people, uh, convert from this sticky bar, Speaker 1 (00:38:43): And this is sticking to the top of the page no matter where you scroll. It's still Speaker 4 (00:38:46): Yeah. Top of every single page not covering the navigation. Um, and so that, that was the control that we had tested into over the years. Uh, but we finally were pushed into the edge of, uh, over the edge of testing this particular treatment. If you have been on Wikipedia during like November and December, you probably saw it because that's what happened to me. It was like a Saturday night and, um, I saw this commercial for a, a scary movie and I, I don't like scary movies, but I have FOMO and genuine curiosity. And so I went to Wikipedia. Nathan does not know this and that's why he's laughing. No, I went to Wikipedia. I experienced this as a user and I thought, wow, that's very bold. Uh, and I wonder if it works . And so when Speaker 1 (00:39:34): You, when you pitch this experiment, I'm pretty sure that the, the picture that you send along was like Chris Evans. Speaker 4 (00:39:40): Yeah. I went to, I went to Chris Evans Wikipedia page and I mean, I can include that video. I still have it. You can send it out so you can see it's functionality. But, uh, I was like, what's less polarizing than Chris Evans? Uh, Speaker 1 (00:39:53): That was great. Um, so late night reading Chris Evans Wikipedia Speaker 4 (00:39:58): Entry. Cool. That's what happens. Uh, you know, that's what our developer said as he was working on it. So this, we tested with this organization, again, we weren't trying to solve a problem, we were just curious if it worked. And, um, boy, uh, did it, um, just a little bit closer to see the messaging here. It has this headline We ask you humbly don't scroll away. And yes, that is to scale. It was very large and in charge . Um, and it says, sorry to interrupt you. We humbly ask you today to help change the world. Um, this isn't the first time we've asked recently, but only 1% of our readers actually give to help transform wives. This organization has a massive, um, news website that has tons and tons of traffic. And so we were actually able to do the math to figure out how many, uh, what percent of their file actually Mm. (00:40:48): Interesting. Gave. Yeah. Um, and so we presented that. We asked for like a $5 minimum gift and, uh, needless to say, remember, uh, this is our control that, that counter sticky bar, um, that is dynamic. Uh, and then we have our treatment here. And um, yeah, it was a 334% increase in donations. Um, and uh, I think it, I think it validated according to Winston in less than five days, we obviously ran it longer than that so we could get more, um, more transactions on it mm-hmm. . But, um, it, it exposed, um, that this particular organization had used the tactic of sticky bars so often that their audience was, uh, desensitized to it. It was like, oh, interesting. They had a sticky bar going every single month with different things and they would change, uh, the messaging. And when it came time to do a fundraising ask through a sticky bar, people were like, well, it's, it's another petition, or it's another like, random thing. And so they were just kind of desensitized. And so this present presented it in a new way for their readers to experience. And it really made the case like, oh wow, only 1% of people, uh, are actually giving towards this mission. Yeah. So, Speaker 1 (00:42:07): So I know there's like a lot of different kind of variables that are, are moving. And I know a common question when you see an experiment like this is like, well, how do you actually know what worked? Um, and that's where there's, there's almost like two different approaches to testing and optimization. There's, you really just very specifically wanna learn something very nuanced. Well, yeah, you gotta control a lot of variables. We're we're trying to optimize in the moment during that campaign to get the best results we can and, and how to strong, you know, fundraisers, marketers, intuition that this might work. Yeah. And I, what you said is really interesting that sometimes you can just maybe get like banner blindness mm-hmm. when you have the same sort of thing and repeat and this injects something different and new. And uh, although maybe you might suggest that, well this, it, it worked one time. Does it work a second time? Yeah. It, it really worked the first time. And so we can run it back and you can optimize on it and test all sorts Speaker 4 (00:42:58): Of new things. Yeah. This particular organization has another high urgency campaign coming up next month. And so we are actually going to be testing this again because Oh cool. It works so well during calendar year end. And, uh, the difference with this, this upcoming campaign is that it's a recurring campaign. And so we are not only gonna test to see how it works with a recurring message, but also, um, some of the other variables. Cuz the, the internal questions when, uh, we presented this internally to our team were, well, was it the placement? Was it the language? Was it all of these other things? It this or Speaker 1 (00:43:30): This or this? Speaker 4 (00:43:31): So it's meeting to more secondary testing Yeah. With not only this organization, but uh, I think there's three others that we have in the pipeline to run it in the next month or so. Speaker 1 (00:43:41): Cool. Well sometimes you gotta take that big swing in order to see the result. Yeah. And when you've optimized as much as you can over overall your control, you take a big swing and you, you hope for the best. And it's informed by data and all that. And then you continue to iterate and optimize until, until the next big thing. So yeah. I think that's such a cool model to follow. Um, what a great experiment. Thank you so much for, for sharing Yeah. And running it. I appreciate it. Speaker 4 (00:44:02): Absolutely. Speaker 1 (00:44:03): We're gonna bring in, uh, Jeff Giddens next who's going to kind of bring us home with one, one final experiment for today. Jeff is, uh, the president here at next after overseeing all we do in terms of trying to optimize programs with, uh, nonprofit organizations and beyond. Uh, so Jeff, come on in. Uh, I'll hand this off to you. All right. You may have seen a fiery conversation on LinkedIn in the past week about fiery should you have donors or ask them at least, uh, cover their transaction fee when they make a donation. And so you've run at least one if not multiple experiments around this. Yeah. And I would love for you to just unpack this Speaker 5 (00:44:40): First. Yeah, for sure. So, um, you know, there are things that creep into our kind of, uh, field division, like tools that pop up because they're new features. And, uh, one of the things that I love about new features is, is testing them. Um, there there's sort of, uh, this innate belief sometimes it's like, we have this new feature, we should activate it. It's, it's inherently good. And it's like, well, is it, and I've wondered for a while about this concept of donor covers fees. I'm not for it or against it. I see the benefits of it for sure. Um, and um, I have a small non-profit of my own. And it is interesting when you get a gift and you see those fees transacted Yeah. Personally, you feel it. Sure. Uh, but when I'm, I, I give a lot of gifts in the nature of our work, not cause I'm like the world's most generous person cause we're testing donation forms, and so I'm like repeatedly, uh, Speaker 1 (00:45:33): Wes most generous, like $5 Speaker 5 (00:45:35): Donation. Yeah. Right. World's cheapest, most frequent donor . Uh, you know, we just give a lot of gifts and so we see donation forms and I think that one of the biases that we develop here at, at next, after is fundraisers in general is like, we're really close to it and we forget what most people experience. So ultimately, um, we had a client who had a donation form, um, and there this is a, a, a system called Antidote. You can see it there. It's not a secret, um, antidote. It's a, a great giving system. Um, but they, uh, introduced a feature and sent a marketing email that said, Hey, now you can select the option and give the donors the option to cover the 3% fee. Right. And so we're like, cool, let's test that. I wonder about the impact of that. And um, so interestingly we use their default setup. (00:46:23): It looks a little bit different than some of these. Okay. Um, their default setup says, first off, cover the processing fee. It does not say, uh, the amount. It's not like you cover the $3 that's dynamic based on your gift or whatever. Yeah. Um, but it, it kind of gives you this like education, uh, bit right here. Like credit card companies take a small percentage of your donation, this means less money towards the mission. By covering this fee, you can make sure 100% of your gift goes towards protecting future generations. Yeah. And this, this language gets in like that much bigger like Dan Pada conversation of like, should a hundred percent go towards mission or Sure. You know, all that stuff. Yeah. So it's a, it's a very big, um, it's like a heady thing to ask someone when they're right here. Like they're about to give their gift, right. (00:47:08): Like we've propelled them through some sort of funnel or, or copy on the page they're about to give. And so we said, let's test this. Um, and so we didn't make any changes to it. Uh, we just used the default messaging. What we found was there's a 39% decrease in donations. Yikes. When we added that. Yeah. So the question was why, and I posted this on LinkedIn this week and got like 80 comments on this post. You should go find it and chat, join in the, the chatter or just read it. Uh, it was very interesting. Uh, 100% of people who worked at a donation platform were like incensed. Uh, but like, but I also thought it was interesting that no one had test, people had tested different things. Mm-hmm. , uh, one of the guys from fundraise up was super insightful on it. Um, and they had tested a lot of stuff. (00:47:54): Like they said, they said, you know, adoption rate is 80%. And I'm like, I asked, I didn't get an answer, the specific question, I was like, did you test it without it and with it, because yes, adoption rate may be 80%, but that's only counting the people who gave mm-hmm. how many people, uh, left, like didn't engage at all. Right. Because I think there's something that happens here. My, my hypothesis is this, John Powell, um, uh, a good friend of ours in a bunch of our courses, um, he used to talk about like, when you're giving, you're having this magical experience where you're like seeing almost the world made right as it should be. Mm-hmm. like whatever. Cause if people are hungry, like you're able to fix that with your money. Yeah. Right. And it's almost this like, uh, spell he said, and he's like, if you can't break the spell Yeah. (00:48:44): Like, you can't bring them to your reality. There's a t analogy in there too. Yeah. Like, you can't, uh, you know, they're having this magical, they're like floating and they're like, you've, you've got them to suspend reality to give their own hard-earned dollars away and they're gonna get something tangible. They're gonna get a good feeling in the knowledge that they've used that. Mm-hmm. But like, all the benefit goes to someone else. Right. And this is probably like in the same browser where they have a tab open and they can go buy a pair of shoes for $50 Yeah. Or something. Right? Yep. It's like they get a tangible benefit for that, but they don't for this. And so he's like, don't break the spell. Like you've got 'em there. Um, and, and my hypothesis on this, one of them is that this processing fee breaks the spell very simply. (00:49:22): It like brings it back down to reality and um, reminds 'em of their fees and other bad things in the world that we don't like. Right. Or that, uh, not may remind 'em that not all of their gift is gonna go to charity. Sure. Like maybe, you know, you've seen enough pie charts of like, what percentage of our gifts go. Yeah. It's like, I think donors know. I don't think they'd like to be reminded of it particularly. Sure. But they know, like it costs, you have to have someone had to set this donation form up. Yeah. Right. Doesn't feel good to know like, Hey, I'm gonna give this gift and only 80% of it's gonna do something I care about. Like Right. That's, so that's, that's part of it. But I also think it's, it, there's a little bit of like nickel and dime here with someone who's being generous with you. (00:50:01): Um, one thing in the LinkedIn comments that consistently came up, they're like, as gift size increases, adoption rate decreases. And I was like, yeah, because I'm giving you 10 grand and you're asking me to tack an extra 300 bucks. Yeah. Like that's that. You would never do that in person. No. If someone was like, Hey Nathan, here's a $10,000 check. You're like, great. Has I processed this? Can you, you have any, get 300 s in your pocket? Like can you cough that up too? Like you would never do that, but we're so comfortable to do it online. Yeah. And sometimes we just blindly accept like the new feature that gets put in there. Yeah. So like, I'm not for or against this. Sure. Uh, I just wanted to see how it would impact. And I was actually kind of shocked to see that it had this big of a valid impact. (00:50:39): Impact that's huge on, um, donations. And, uh, it is, it is fascinating. Um, we tested this with another organization that had it on the form, so we did the inverse, um, and theirs just said Cover the amount. Processing fee. Yeah. And it changed how, you know, based on what you typed in it was 3%. Um, and so, uh, you know, they, um, we, we tested that by removing it and we tested it on two different pages. And one page was a 21% lift, the other page was a 38% lift. Mm-hmm. And so in that case, in this case, adding it decreased donations. Yeah. In those two cases, removing it increased donations and those were acquisition funnels. This was like a main donation page. Gotcha. Um, but it is especially new donor versus potentially lots of repeat donors. So yeah. Clarity. I think that, uh, the hard thing for donation platforms is that they're like the receptacle they're at, at the end of the process to collect the gift. (00:51:31): Mm-hmm. . Right? And so there's a lot happening outside of that. Like if your donation, um, form has an optimization, um, like a tabbed form or like, uh, you know, something that we've seen in other tests, um, and they've put that into place, that is helpful because it'll authentically increase your conversion rate. Mm-hmm. , um, I still think you should always test those things. Sure. Um, cuz organizations and donors are different, but it's kind of, um, it's just kind of interesting, um, like the perception of technology company who like wants to sell you their product. Laurie, Lori, um, said, uh, you know, fundraise ups, AI now does predictive offerings to pay the fees and they say they'll present it to the right person at the right time and sounds interesting. Mm-hmm. , um, I would love to still test it. Like Yeah. None at all. Or does it actually like negate what we see in this experiment? (00:52:25): Right. And I don't wanna overgeneralize this, I don't wanna say that like, doing this every time is gonna reduce conversion. Yeah. Which has, even within a specific organization, it's probably different pages funnel, the funnel new versus returning all that stuff. In fact, if you have this available in your software and you want to test it, I would love to expand our, uh, body of research on this. Um, Lori said she'll try turning off 30 days and see what happens. . Um, yeah, please give, give us all the data. We'll help you, we'll help you put that together. Yeah. Um, but you know, I'd think that, uh, overall, like my takeaway from this is, um, you know, these small changes that kind of come packaged up in technology or sold as solutions, right? Because you think about it, fundraisers, competitors, or other donation forms mm-hmm. and there's something wrong with That's great. (00:53:09): Sure. Love it. We actually need that competition to make better donation for better. Yeah. Um, but you know, they're selling themselves. They're, they're trying to get buyers based on these different feature sets. But like, is the feature set good as something that we should ask and does it, does it help for our organization? Not, and, um, I do like, you know, uh, organization or, uh, features, uh, sorry, donation platforms that allow these to be optional. Cause you can test it, you can split traffic. One page has it, one doesn't. You can just go find out. Speaker 1 (00:53:38): Yeah. Makes total sense. All right. Thank you Jeff. We're gonna move on to some, uh, some q and A here. I see there's several things kind of in the chat that we can circle back on. There's at least one in the q and a panel. Um, if you wouldn't mind jump over to the q and A tool. If you've got questions for myself or for Jeff. And it could be about any of these experiments. We can kind of go back to them too, uh, as we got about five or six minutes before we wrap up. Um, drop those in the q and a tool so we can make sure we keep track of 'em and we can get you answers. Um, I do wanna show you this link. Um, as you're getting those questions in, if you wanna look at if just some more interesting experiments, you'll find all of these in this journal plus another 10 or 12. (00:54:12): Uh, you can go to next after.com/best new research or pull out your phone scan QR code. You can get the, uh, the latest online fundraising research journal. Uh, we'll also send this link out, uh, in the follow up email tomorrow so you can grab that as well. Uh, and then I'll just leave this on the screen as well. Uh, if you're marking your calendar for Neos Summit, make sure you grab your tickets as soon as you can so you can get the best price possible. There's also like a t-shirt contest, uh, t-shirt design contest running at the moment. So you should be able to find that. If you Speaker 5 (00:54:38): May, you get free tickets, Speaker 1 (00:54:39): Right? You get a free ticket if you win. I think maybe, maybe even two. Don't quote me on that, but you might even get two. Speaker 5 (00:54:44): Be there. It's gonna be awesome. Speaker 1 (00:54:46): . It's gonna be a blast. Uh, okay. I'll pull up the q and A tool and then we'll kind of, we'll we'll chat about these for the next few minutes. This, this question from Susan actually comes from the very first, uh, experiment we looked at with Courtney, which is looking at mm-hmm. , the newsletter popup. Mm-hmm. and version B adds. Hi, I'm Erica and introduces that human element to it. Mm-hmm. . Uh, here's a question. Susan says, we tend to be very cautious with our lists. I assume that's email lists. Should you keep the newsletter list separate from other email lists or do you add them to all lists and then allow people to opt out, uh, a fund raising list if they want to? What do you think? Speaker 5 (00:55:22): Great question. Um, number one, I think it's very hard to get people into donor lists if you don't ever give them the opportunity to give. Yep. And so you may not want to opt them into everything. Uh, but um, I also think on the flip side of that, it's very good to get people to opt into the stuff that you normally just send them. Um, we have a client who saw, uh, an increase in unsubscribed rate and we looked at why. And it's because they have a newsletter that goes out weekly, but people never opted into it. It was just something that they got sent. Mm-hmm. Um, and so there may be sins that you do that are not like weekly regimented like a product. I want this. And that's okay. I think to send to people when it's like opportunistic. Um, but I think there's a value, uh, in getting people to say yes, even if that means newsletter to list may be smaller, which is hard cause Sure. Sometimes you're like, I wanna grow the list. Yep. Like growing it from a person who's a confirmed opt-in for that, um, matters. Yeah. Speaker 1 (00:56:17): Far better than just opting in a hundred thousand people into a newsletter they didn't know they're gonna get. Speaker 5 (00:56:21): Yeah. Well I think that not there's the, there's the point of it that looks at it from the perspective of like, oh, they may not want it, but the other way to look at it's like, these people actually want it. Mm-hmm. . Right. So your engagement will be true. Yeah. Uh, it may not be like, you may not get as many raw clicks, but your click through rate will be better cause they wanted it. Yeah. So, yeah, Speaker 1 (00:56:40): That makes total sense. Speaker 5 (00:56:42): We miss that sometimes. Speaker 1 (00:56:43): There's a question here from, I'll jump over to the chat here. Uh, Ben asked this question as kind of a follow up to talking about transaction fees and things. Have you tested with any clients using a post donation popup that has to cover the fee? Uh, Ben says, I've seen make your monthly gift or make your gift monthly instead. What have you seen with those kind of like post transaction, Speaker 5 (00:57:03): Uh, you know, transaction? Paul Diesel, who's the founder, CEO of Antidote, said he wanted to test it after the gift. He, he saw that comment, he's like, I'd like to test this, so I need to follow up with him and see if he is a client or one of our clients that uses that platform that we can test that with. That'd be super interesting. I don't know. My hypothesis is that adoption would drop off because like, nothing kills a nothing kills a funnel like saying thank you. Sure. Like you're done mentally checked out, you know? Yeah. Um, so I think there would probably be less adoption mm-hmm. . Um, but, uh, yeah. It is, it is a, it's an interesting question of like, instead of putting it right before they give, can you a, can you get them to give it after? There's probably some technical things like could the tokens stay open so they could process that on top of the gift? (00:57:43): Or is it a separate transaction? Um, I don't know. I asked, um, I asked a guy from a fundraise, which is a great company, Justin Wheeler mm-hmm. , our friend's company. I was like, why do you care about covering the fees so much? Mm-hmm. Cause he said he was a hardcore advocate for it. And I was like, okay, I've never met anyone who's hardcore about like donor covering the fees. Yeah. And he said, you know, it's like the, it's the fastest way, uh, to like offset a cost and I get where he is coming from because it's true and and truly like the platforms care because they're actually the ones that create the cost. Yeah. In that way. Like they have to, they're trying to offset their fee. In fact, Speaker 1 (00:58:18): Justify what you're investing in the Speaker 5 (00:58:19): Product. Totally. Um, but I do think that sometimes like as a, as a industry, we can be more, Brady Josephson said this to me on the phone. He called me about the LinkedIn post. He was like, why did you make everybody mad ? He said, uh, he said, as an industry in nonprofit's, like we're, so sometimes we can be so much more concerned with saving and not as concerned with growth. Sure. Right. And those two things become diametric. Yeah. Um, someone else commented and said, uh, apparently this is big in Canada, but you can tip after the donation. Mm-hmm. Okay. And it's not to cover the fee for your transaction. It's literally like, well you cover the cost of this fundraising platform. Yeah. And um, you know, I just think it's a really interesting, uh, if you take everything out to human behavior, like I don't think we would do that. And I think we underrate sometimes we're trying to humanize these interactive experiences online. Yep. But if you wouldn't do it in person, like I don't think you should do it. I get furious when I go to the froyo shop with my kids frozen yogurt. Um, and like, Speaker 1 (00:59:16): Anyway, Speaker 5 (00:59:17): I self-serve, I put my own topics on, they weigh it and then they're like 10 bucks and I'm like, run it. And they're like, would you like to tip? I'm like, Speaker 1 (00:59:23): For what? Speaker 5 (00:59:24): Like, I just did it all for Yeah. But in a way that's kind of a similar concept, but, so I all that to say Ben, like I would love, uh, to test, to cover the fee. You know, you may get lower adoption, but it might be, it, it definitely wouldn't prevent or, or send people away from giving mm-hmm. , whatever that Speaker 1 (00:59:40): Test did. And then the question becomes, okay, maybe you can get, maybe you don't harm conversions, you get some people to cover the fee, but then is that the best next thing to ask somebody to do at that point? Is Speaker 5 (00:59:49): It really what you want? Speaker 1 (00:59:50): Yeah. Right. Speaker 5 (00:59:50): Because it, because go back to the $10,000. I'll say like, take a $10,000 donor. Mm-hmm. like they just gave you a tremendous gift. It's a lot of money and you really want 300 extra bucks from them. Would you Speaker 1 (01:00:02): Give a little bit more Speaker 5 (01:00:03): Please. Because what does that apply to me? It implies like your gift wasn't big enough. Yeah. You know, like we need you to stretch a little bit more. Yeah. It's just like, man, I don't know if you really want to do that. Speaker 1 (01:00:14): Right. These are fantastic questions. I see , Lori's commenting on tipping, getting out of control. I absolutely agree with you. Uh, h Lynn would like us to post I believe the LinkedIn or post the link in the chat of the research comparison on the previous screen here. I could Speaker 5 (01:00:29): Back to that. Oh, Speaker 1 (01:00:29): Journal. You can grab that too. Yeah. The, the journal. So you can grab that, dive into some additional experiments if you'd like to, if you got any follow up questions as you just kind of think on these things that we've talked through today, just shoot me an email. I'll send you an email in the morning with, uh, the, um, the slide deck and the recording and all that stuff. You can just hit reply to that. Send us your questions. If you've got follow up thoughts, uh, and, and commentary, we'd love to hear from you. Thank you so much for making time outta your busy schedules to join us today. We wish you the best of luck as you actively work to test and optimize your way to bigger and better results so you can feel greater impact. So thank you all. Appreciate you all. We're rooting for you. Have a great rest of your afternoon. Speaker 5 (01:01:06): See ya. Peace .